HOME   People do good because they are human, not because they are religious! 

Do not give God any credit for the good they do, they did it!

 

RELIGION - THE RATIONALE OF FORCED CONVERSION
 
Human nature is confusingly inconsistent. The man who has no problem with babies being slaughtered may hate to see rabbits being killed by dogs. He may cry. This inconsistency is the reason why religions that endorse violence find it hard to get everybody to obey its warmongering dictates. Christianity has virtually given up because of the high level of apathy among Christians and many Christians have passion for some doctrines of the faith and hate or are indifferent towards the rest.
 
The Bible God endorses violence. The Christian cannot deny that people sincerely believe that God claims to bring good out of our mistakes meaning that if we do violence in his name he will understand and make it right. The Christian cannot deny that those who put the Bible together and who proclaimed it to be the work of God, the divine author, believed God has the right to command violence. He has this right in principle if not in practice. A God that lets sickness happen for a good reason is a God who can command you to kill for him for a good reason.
 
People liking God with all the dangers of belief in God proves that they are worshipping the version of him that they want to believe in. Some may say that those who kill in the name of God know it is wrong. But who are they to say what others know? Also, they are violent themselves because they argue, "We force our rules on those people for they know fine well we are right. We are not forcing belief in morality on them for they know what morality is anyway." It is violent to treat people as if they know something and treat them roughly because of that. It is running a risk of attempting forced conversion.
 
Forced conversion is a form of religious persecution. A religion can persecute by forced conversion. Or it might be opposed to forced conversion and instead persecute and imprison those who try to form new religions or get converts.
 
I argue that religion must believe that it should force people to join it when it is able, regardless of its utterances in favour of religious liberty, if it is being true to itself. I am not saying religious people will necessarily want to force people for most do not, but I am saying religion is dangerous for some people will want to force because of it. It is still a bad influence that the world could do without. I am saying the consistent and strong believer in religion - who takes its revelations seriously will develop a desire to see people forced to comply with religion.
 
St Augustine speaking for the Catholic Church hundreds of years ago said that forced conversion is good for it paves the way to real conversion. "It is indeed better (as no one ever could deny) that men should be led to worship God by teaching, than that they should be driven to it by fear of punishment or pain; but it does not follow that because the former course produces the better men, therefore those who do not yield to it should be neglected. For many have found advantage (as we have proved, and are daily proving by actual experiment), in being first compelled by fear or pain, so that they might afterwards be influenced by teaching, or might follow out in act what they had already learned in word." --Saint Augustine, Treatise on the Correction of the Donatists.
 
Because of St Augustine, the Catholic Church endorsed forced conversion of unbelievers into the Church. The last time that was done was under the Ustashi in Yugoslavia in the twentieth century.
 
Augustine's view that forced conversion is a great thing could be an embarrassment to the Church today. People have been excommunicated from the Church for dissenting from the teachings of the Church such as the bread being the body of Jesus at Mass. But nobody has ever been disciplined or excommunicated for teaching like Augustine that forced conversion is good because eventually the person should believe. And Augustine is a saint and a doctor (ie main teacher) of the Church. Actions speak louder than words - the Church still would like to force people.
 
The Catholic Church today claims that it is the one true Church so it has the right to make babies members of the Church and obligated to believe its doctrines when it baptises them. But the religion is not clearly the one true Church and the vast majority of students of religion find serious errors in the Church's doctrine and science is against the faith. Thus the baptisms are clearly forced conversion. Priests who cannot give a convincing case for Catholicism being all true have no business baptising babies and thereby degrading them.
 
Today the Catholic religion seems to back up the ideal of religious liberty. But it’s not that simple as we shall soon see and we still have reason to worry. The best Catholic theologians teach that Vatican II only taught that nobody can be converted to Catholicism by force not that religious liberty for non-Catholics is acceptable. And Augustine himself agreed that nobody can be forced but argued that the value of forcing is that they will soon freely give in. Vatican II did nothing to change that teaching or repudiate it.

 

HOW MUCH OF MORALITY IS ABOUT RESIGNATION?

 

How much of morality is about resignation?
 
ESSENTIAL INTOLERANCE IN COMMAND TO LOVE GOD ONLY OR MOST
 
The doctrine of God implies that since God is the law and is not subject to the law that people must agree with him. They must not divorce goodness from God but fuse the two. Since God is supreme there can be no law over him to punish him or reward him for what he does which raises the problem of how we know we can trust him. Christianity says just trust him. But it is unfair and bigoted just trust a being that makes such serious and heavy demands on us: love me with all your heart and do what I say and condemn what I condemn even if my rules make no sense to anybody and put yourself and your neighbour in second place to me. It is like marrying somebody within seconds of meeting them. The God concept then is inherently violent and intolerant and bloody.
 
DOES RELIGION MEAN THE HYPOCRISY OBJECTION?
 
Religion claims to be opposed to compulsion in religion for that produces hypocrites. In other words, if it didn't make hypocrites they would be happy to do it. The underlying attitude is that they still want to force.
 
Also, to say that it produces hypocrites contradicts the doctrine that it is really God's intervention and attractiveness and his power to enlighten the mind that gets converts. It follows that though we force, God could be using our evil to help the person convert freely. This derives from the Christian belief in the power of God to turn evil into good. If the Christians really believe in God's intervening grace they do not really believe the hypocrisy objection and are lying that they do.
 
The doctrine that God knows what is best over all and we don't for we don't even know the future or how our plans will turn out implies that he could command us to use forced conversion but perhaps carefully and with a view to inspiring the victims to convert in reality and in their hearts. If you believe in God, logically you cannot say that forced conversion is automatically and undeniably wrong. You are making God's opinion your own. If your faith tells you that God does not sanction forced conversion, you mean that you only believe that it is wrong not that you know it is wrong. You are saying you are not sure on religious grounds that forced conversion is wrong because belief is not certainty. It is taking a small step towards approval for forced conversion for you are declining to condemn it outright. Your opposition is weakened because it is based on belief. Believing that forced conversion is wrong implies that you are open to changing your mind. Also you are saying that what matters is what God wants so if he wanted forced conversion you would believe in it and help people to be forced into your religion. To say such a thing implies that if you have the right to decide what God has revealed then others have this right too and can believe that God demands forced conversion and the persecution of heretics and those who belong to religions different from your own.
 
Religion cannot say that it is wrong to take away a person’s freedom for you always have a choice. When a priest puts a gun to your head saying, “Convert or die”, you can either convert sincerely or insincerely or get shot. If you believe in religion then why fear death? If you feel you had no choice because of the fear that is your fault and not the priest's.
 
Religion does not mind forcing faith on children for they are easy targets though that results in hypocrisy. It would do the same to everybody else if it had the resources and society's permission. It is no objection to say that the child has to be forced for she or he does not understand what she or he is doing or how to approach life. Surely the unbeliever child does not understand either and religion certainly doesn’t agree with children being raised as humanists. If religion is consistent and honest it will see that as child abuse. Taking advantage of a child to get him to accept a religion is worse than doing it to an adult.
 
Forced conversions will produce some or mostly hypocrites yes but it will fairly ensure that their children and their children’s children will truly believe in the religion. Better to force some than to force error on more by doing nothing especially when God's grace and power is infinite. Forcing the hypocrites to practice and defend it will be a powerful inspiration that will make others closer to it. Furthermore, it is not sinful to be a hypocrite when you are forced to be one. The religion, however, cannot be satisfied with a false commitment and will prefer sincere devotion. It would be affirming belief in magic to say that God would be pleased with play-acting.
 
Forced conversion is one of those things that eventually become unnecessary.
 
The hypocrites will come to reason that God will not reject them for sincerely believing in a false religion that they might as well believe. They can be told this so that compulsion will do them no spiritual harm through it being the fault of the religion that forces them.
 
God may want them to commit the sin of hypocrisy in order to bestow on them the knowledge that will draw them to drop it and be holy. God permits temptation to being good out of it even if it succeeds. God uses sin for a greater good. Those beliefs give a confidence that forced conversion will be a good thing ultimately.
 
AN ABSOLUTE LAW THAT PEOPLE MUST CONVERT?
 
An absolutist teaches that rules must be kept regardless of the consequences, be they a greater good or no good at all. Absolutists forbid all lies so absolutism would seem to imply that forcing religion and hypocrisy on people is wrong for hypocrisy is a lie. But absolutism forbids all lies for it holds that all truth is sacred. A person not knowing the truth and having the chance to follow it is worse than a person being forced to lie and pretend they believe it. Absolutism recommends force.
 
Compulsion is not necessarily bad. Forcing a person who wants to commit suicide to live is good. Forcing a person to eat to prevent that person from getting sick is good. So dragging a person into religion kicking and screaming need not be bad.
 
Absolutism says if you are going to be murdered and you can save yourself with a lie then don't lie. It puts avoidance of lying before avoidance of death so avoidance of error comes before avoidance of hypocrisy or death so it cannot refute enforced conversion.
 
People will listen to why the religion is trying to force them. When they understand that any sin they commit because of that is their own fault and problem and can’t be a reason for condemning coercion.
 
Forced conversion cannot exist if God exists for God is reported by the Church to have used human attempts to force the faith on people to arouse real faith in the victims.
 
PREDESTINATION AND FORCE

Predestination is the Calvinist Protestant doctrine that God programs people to freely go, for all eternity, either to Heaven or Hell.
 
Supporters say that since conversion is all God’s work - for he even programs the evangelists – coercion is not on. That does not follow.
 
God could easily use religious compulsion to convert a person as anything else. Protestantism is a religion that teaches that God condones their sins leaving them to sin as much as they like though they must do some good to show that they are predestined to salvation. When it is anti-morality it is dangerous. The Protestant record on religious freedom is as bad as that of the Catholic Church. Look at how Protestantism behaves in Northern Ireland where it has led to discrimination against and persecution of Catholics.
 
 
WHY NOT FORCE WHEN EVERYBODY ELSE DOES?
 
Religion is not the only entity in the world that forces its views and its laws on people. Society is as bad. You are forced to wear clothes as if the body is shameful and bad. You are judged as a pervert for just doing what is natural. You are forced not to be President of your country. It is not true that people are pro-freedom. Religion is not pro-freedom. When you act freely, you do so because others permit you to or can't stop you. If you were really free the only permission you would live by is your own. Atheists might take away people's freedom like religion would. The only thing I can say to that is that if people freely abandon religion, that is one less threat or possible threat to our freedom. And atheists tend to be liberals in politics so we could have worse running the nation.
 
If people will force us for the sake of money, they could do it faster for God! Where's the bigger danger? The man who craves money fights hard knowing that money can let him down. There is little or no security in what he is doing. But if you fight for God and think he is on your side surely you would be worse than the avaricious man?
 
CONCLUSION

Religion is dangerous as we know from centuries past when it used every weapon it had to force conversion on people and prevent freedom of speech. Today its beliefs, at least by implication, command it to carry on this way. This alone is sufficient proof that its dangerous. Anything that can lead an intelligent or perceptive person to notice that their faith logically justifies persecution and sectarianism and forced conversions is to be condemned outright.

 
BIBLE QUOTATIONS FROM:
The Amplified Bible

BOOKS CONSULTED
 
A Critical Review of Humanist Manifestos 1 & 2, Homer Duncan MC, International Publications, Lubbock Texas.
A Shattered Visage The Real Face of Atheism, Ravi Zacharias, Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Tenneessee, 1990
A Thief in the Night, John Cornwell, Penguin, London, 1990
A Woman Rides the Beast, Dave Hunt, Harvest House, Eugene, Oregon, 1994
All Roads Lead to Rome, Michael de Semlyen, Dorchester House Publications, Bucks, 1993 (page 120 recounts Cardinal Konig of Vienna’s testimony that the Vatican helped Nazi war criminals to escape)
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Part 1, Most Rev M Sheehan DD, M H Gill & Son, Dublin 1954
Apologetics for the Pulpit, Aloysius Roche Burns Oates & Washbourne Ltd, London, 1950
Blind Alley Beliefs, David Cook, Pickering & Inglis, Glasgow, 1979
Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1988
Christianity, David Albert Jones, OP, Family Publications, Oxford, 1999
Convert or Die, Edmond Paris, Chick Publications, Chino, California, undated
Correction and Discipline of Children, John R Rice, Sword of the Lord, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 1946
Crisis of Moral Authority, Don Cupitt, SCM Press, London, 1985
Documents of the Christian Church, edited by Henry Bettenson, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1979
Does America Need the Moral Majority? William Willoughby, Haven Books, New Jersey, 1981
Does Conscience Decide? Bishop William J Philbin, Catholic Truth Society of Ireland, Dublin
Ecumenical Jihad, Peter Kreeft, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1996
European Union and Roman Catholic Influence In Britain, David N Samuel, The Harrison Trust, Kent, 1995
Fascism in the English Church, A London Journalist, Henry E Walter, London, 1938
Fifty Years in the “Church” of Rome, Charles Chiniquy, Chick Publications, Chino, California, 1985
God and the Gun, The Church and Irish Terrorism, Martin Dillon, Orion, London, 1998
‘God, That’s not fair!’ Dick Dowsett, OMF Books, Overseas Missionary Fellowship, Belmont, The Vine, Sevenoaks, Kent TN13 3TZ] Kent, 1982
Handbook of Christian Apologetics, Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli, Monarch, East Sussex, 1995
Human Rights, Michael Bertram Crowe Veritas, Dublin, 1978
In God’s Name, David Yallop, Corgi, London, 1987
Is the Roman Catholic Church a Secret Society? John V Simcox, Warren Sandell and Raymond Winch Watts & Co London, 1946
Is There Salvation Outside The Catholic Church? Fr J Bainvel SJ, TAN, Illinois, 1979
Jesuit Plots, From Elizabethan to Modern Times, Albert Close, Protestant Truth Society, London undated
Jesus the Only Saviour, Tony and Patricia Higton, Monarch Tunbridge Wells, Kent, 1993
New Catholic Encyclopedia, The Catholic University of America and the McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc., Washington, District of Columbia, 1967
Radio Replies, Vol 1, Frs Rumble and Carty, Radio Replies Press, St Paul, Minnesota, 1938
Radio Replies, Vol 2, Frs Rumble and Carty, Radio Replies Press, St Paul, Minnesota 1940
Radio Replies, Vol 3, Frs Rumble and Carty, Radio Replies Press, St Paul, Minnesota 1942
Religion of Peace? Why Christianity is and Islam Isn't, Robert Spencer, Regnery Publishing Inc, Washington, 2007 - a curious book in that it simply doesn't mention how Christian Scriptures incited believers, eg Calvinists, to attack and destroy other believers who were thought to be heretics and doesn't mention the infallible decrees of the Roman Catholic Church commanding the violent destruction of heretics but wants to give the impression that unlike the Koran, the Christian Scriptures and the Christian religion do not make calls for religious violence
Religious Freedom, A Fundamental Right, Michael Swhwartz, Liguori Publications, Missouri, 1987
Roman Catholicism, Loraine Boettner, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, New Jersey, 1987
Rome – Our Enemy, Clifford Smyth, Puritan Printing, Belfast, 1975
Secular Humanism – The Most Dangerous Religion in America, Homer Duncan, MC International Publications, Lubbock, Texas. Undated.
Sex Education in Our Public Schools, Jack Hyles, Sword of the Lord, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 1969
Sex, Dissidence and Damnation, Jeffrey Richards, Routledge, London 1994
Spy in the Vatican 1941-45, Branko Bokun, Tom Stacey Books, London, 1973
Summa Theologica of St Thomas Aquinas, Part II, Second Number, Thomas Baker, London, 1918.
The Christian and War, Robert Moyer, Sword of the Lord, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 1946
The Church of Rome, Wilson Ewin, Bible Baptist Church, Nashua NH USA
The Encyclopaedia of Heresies and Heretics, Leonard George, Robson Books, London, 1995
The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, Henry Charles Lea, Citadel, New York, 1963
The Last Temptation of Christ, Its Deception and What you Should Do About it, Erwin T Lutzer, Moody Press, Chicago, 1988
The Pestilence of AIDS, Hugh Pyle, Sword of the Lord, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 1987
The Rise of the Spanish Inquisition, Jean Plaidy, Star, London, 1978
The Sacred Executioner Human Sacrifice and the Legacy of Guilt Hyam Maccoby Thames and Hudson, London, 1982
The Secret History of the Jesuits, Edmond Paris, Chick Publications, Chino, California, 1975
The Truth About the Homosexuals, Dr Hugh F Pyle, Sword of the Lord, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 1978
The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Watchtower, New York, 1968
The Unequal Yoke, John R Rice, Sword of the Lord, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, 1946
The Upside-Down Kingdom, Donald B Kraybill Marshalls, Hants, 1978
The Vatican Connection, The Explosive Expose of a Billion-Dollar Counterfeit Stock Deal Between the Mafia the Church, Richard Hammers Penguin, Middlesex, 1982
Their Kingdom Come, Robert Hutchison, Corgi, London, 1997
Unholy Sacrifices of the New Age, Paul de Parrie and Mary Pride, Crossway Books, Westchester, Illinois 1988
Vatican USA, Nino LoBello, Trident Press, New York, 1972
Vicars of Christ, Peter de Rosa, Corgi Books, London, 1993
Walking with Unbelievers, Michael Paul Gallagher SJ, Veritas Dublin 1985
War and Politics The Christian’s Duty, Peter Watkins, Christadelphian Bible Mission, Birmingham
What About Those Who Have Never Heard? Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1986
Whatever Happened to Heaven? Dave Hunt, Harvest House, Publishers, Oregon, 1988

THE WWW

www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/big_blue_books/book_10.html
Fascist Romanism Defies Civilisation by Joseph McCabe

www.hom.net/~angels/democracy.html
Democracy is not a good form of Government by Citizens for the Ten Commandments

www.mindspring.com/~bab5/BIB/lessons.htm
Is Christianity a Cult?