HOME   People do good because they are human, not because they are religious! 

Do not give God any credit for the good they do, they did it!

 

LIST OF REASONS WHY IT IS EVIL TO WANT GOD'S FORGIVENESS BECAUSE VICTIM'S IS NOT ENOUGH
 
If what you have done is unforgiveable then wanting God's forgiveness and thinking you have got it is selfish and arrogant.
 
And something being unforgiveable means there will be actions that are even more unforgiveable. If GBH is unpardonable murder is even more so.
 
Nobody sees how unforgivable you intended your action to be. You may be forgiven for hitting a victim but the victim will never know exactly how much evil you intended by doing so - maybe you did it in the chance the person would be brain-damaged or slowly die in agony. There is thus a risk that the person seeking forgiveness is being manipulative.
 
If God is what everybody needs then to bring suffering on others is making their relationship with God harder and people do turn against God because of what his creations do to them. If there is no God then what if they need faith in him anyway? Faith and God thus add to the damage you have done to them. Again there is thus a further risk that the person seeking forgiveness is being manipulative.
 
You know your evil deed will have evil results you never intended but you still have to be forgiven for those as well for you did the evil deed and thus as good as intended them though you didn't. Again there is thus a further risk that the person seeking forgiveness is being manipulative.
 
People do not abuse the victim's forgiveness as much as they do God's for they could do the same sins every day and repent as often [some "repentance"!]
 
When you see the pain you have caused to the victim and how they sacrificed to grant it it will influence your behaviour and make you desire to refrain from hurting them again. This cannot happen with God who is unaffected by sins. If you do wrong and all you worry about is God then the victim will face repeated hurts from you. It will be a cycle of doing evil and repenting and doing evil again. If it is not then that is down to luck not you.
 
Imagine none of what we read so far is true. Even then seeking God's forgiveness though you seek the victim's is an insult to the victim and the victim needs to learn to take it personally. Why? The victim's forgiveness should be enough.
 
Seeking God's forgiveness and not caring if the victim forgives or not is an outrage. Human nature does not respect the person who wants an abstract and cold forgiveness from God instead of trying to feel for and with the victim so that peace can be forged between victim and oppressor.

If you do something bad enough and get caught you could end up in jail forever.  But what if the state cannot punish you and you know it should?  Then trying to feel forgiven by God is using God to thwart nature which seeks to torment you with bad feelings and regrets.  It is not about moving on or you stopping evildoing but about you getting away with it. 

Forgiving terrible things especially against others such as friends is a massive risk.  Religion says we must let God worry about the risks and dangers.  Instinct says that if there is no power to make forgiveness safe and bring good out of evil then forgiving a very dangerous person who says they have reformed is not justified.  The reason is that you are moving on and dropping the protective role of holding a grudge.  If there is no being to work for a good outcome magically or supernaturally then this is a stupid risk.

It is better to assume there is no God for if you are wrong then he still works to turn evil to good he should be bigger than your errors.  At least if there is no God you are protecting yourself.  Belief in a God who helps you forgive is such a risk you cannot expect people to think you forgive because you truly care about safety!  A forgiving God is just a way of finding a moral high ground.
 
Seeking God's forgiveness and not the victim's is a sign you want to feel forgiven not be forgiven. You have no right to use God's forgiveness as a substitute for the forgiveness you need from others. It is an insult to them if they feel the need to forgive and/or to reconcile. We cannot function in life unless enough people forgive us so it is short-sighted.
 
Forgiveness seems to be more self-deception than anything else when God is brought into it. It can be self-deception even if he is not but faith only makes the risk far worse.
 
The bigger the wrong you have done or intended to the victim the more deplorable your antics are.
 
How much of forgiveness is forgiveness? Human nature can mix things together so that forgiving an evil person can be 95% condoning and 5% forgiveness or 5% condoning or 95% forgiveness.
 
The person who too easily or quickly forgives monsters is in fact condoning more than anything else or just condoning.
 
The forgiver and the condoner do it for the same reason: to move on for the past cannot be changed. There is a thin line between the two. A condoner will not admit to condoning. He or she will claim to be forgiving. That is actually a boast for forgiveness is quite an achievement. The person who forgives what is done to others - especially the victims of dictators long ago - is probably condoning for it is easy to not care what happens to others and worry only about yourself and your loved ones.  And that is not judgmentalism for we all see how the religious and political world tends to condone violence that has suited or may now suit their agenda.

Condoning and forgiving both have the same result.  The offender is not treated now or in the future as a wrongdoer or thought of as one.  The outcome is the same.  If the present and future matter and not the past people will say it does not matter if you condone or forgive.  Condoning is easier than forgiving so we should assume that forgiving people are not that forgiving after all but just condoners.

Jesus commanded us to believe that as all we have is totally God's we must do all we do for the love of God alone.  We love our neighbour not in himself but for God so this is just another way of being all about God and nobody else.  So you forgive others only for God.  So you forgive yourself only for God.  This is not seeking to value the neighbour or yourself.   Forgiveness has to involve valuing the neighbour and yourself thus this is not forgiveness but a close match but still far from close enough.  It is bad for the reason condoning is bad - the victim as a human being is not important.  It is condoning with a different flavour.

Goodness is real though abstract.  It is not a thing but it is there. If there is nothing at all at least that is good in the sense there is nobody around to suffer.  Goodness is independent of God which means God cannot know 100% if something or some deed is good.  He has to believe just like us.  So he can forgive people and be wrong to.  We are more unreliable than he is. In so far as we only believe we should forgive and believe we forgive there is a chance we are wrong. In so far as we don't know we are condoning.  If forgiveness and condoning are two separate things then the uncertainty of belief brings them together.  If we believe in forgiving because of God that adds to the uncertainty and thus the condoning.

Forgiveness is based on intending to move on not on moving on.  Sometimes intentions cannot be carried out.  If moving on matters that much to the forgiveness brigade then surely they would agree, "If you really cannot forgive then find a way to condone instead.  Better either of these than letting a grudge fester."  Forgiveness can be hard for you have to judge the person as bad and face how bad they are and then move on but making excuses for them is easier and so condoning will seem attractive.

Who needs to move on?  You?  Your victim?  It is certainly not God.  There is no moving on - just God changing your status from not-forgiven to forgiven.  This is not forgiveness at all because x can tell y she is forgiven but if there is no discussion or debate and getting to know each other then x is just talking hot air.  You have to do the moving on and you cannot obligate the victim to move on and neither can God for that is pressure.  Forgiveness should be unpressured otherwise it is a mixture of pressure and something else and  not pure forgiveness.

We are sort of pressured to move on for it is hard to live in the past.  Forgiveness is propelled by a need and pressure to let go.  Forgiveness has a bully side.  God cannot have the need to forgive for he has all he wants as he is maker of all.  Such a God is no role model for us and thus is only a hindrance.
 
Considering the evils involved it is clear that to say God helps you forgive and approves of your mercy is just a boast and a further insult to suffering people.

God knows the past and the present and the future and knows exactly how bad you intend to be even if you don't realise how bad you are yourself. The notion that God forgives us before we sin and during our sin and after is a strange one. We usually understand forgiveness to follow a bad deed. To forgive before an action and during it is too close to condoning that it makes no sense to ban condoning as evil. The doctrine of God makes a carnage of forgiveness and replaces forgiveness with a toxic twin.

Forgiveness from God and when you forgive for the sake of God is an evil.  That evil is worsened if it is a lot of sins or a huge incredible sin you forgive.  It is just a way of being good with evil.

Surprisingly everybody at times feels or thinks they need to forgive God.  Forgiving God is not like forgiving a person.  Forgiving God is really just condoning what God does no matter how terrible it seems.  First, God is supposed to be never wrong so you have lost the argument and there is something unfair and insulting about being forgiven when you done nothing even slightly wrong like God.  Second, you and God do not struggle to move on - it is your one-sided struggle whereas with real forgiveness victim and perpetrator need to communicate enough to be able to move on properly and each one learns from the others difficulties and pain but God doesn't even have pain. Third, your forgiveness can be partial or incomplete whereas you have to forgive God totally and that is a big call especially when awful things happen and you should be more upset about what God does to others than yourself.  Fourth, how can you judge God for you cannot talk to him as one man talks to another?  And judging is a part of forgiveness - you judge the wrong accurately and why it was done and based on that information you choose to let it go for the sake of moving on.

The end result ticks off all the boxes for condoning not forgiving.  If you think God owes you an apology for putting you in this terrible world then that is the biggest ask of all for he has more to do with evil than anything else does.  As creator he is the one who gave free will which man uses to be destructive and he made viruses to kill and so many unspeakable things.  He is responsible.

Nobody forgives if they think there is a reasonable chance or if it is certain that the forgiven will use their forgiveness to unleash new hurts on them.  All believe that forgiveness makes you vulnerable.  However for most believers, Christian forgiveness is based on the assumption that it is given by God’s grace as a gift so it is good in itself and as God gives it he will ensure that it will be for the best in the future.  If that is true then we should forgive even when it is insane like the Him character in the film mother!  That is dangerous and extremist and putting faith before people.  And nobody wants to take responsibility if it is wrong.  So to see forgiveness as a grace - as something you cannot do unless God empowers you  - and to see its good results as a grace is dangerous on both counts.

Forgiving God is no practice for forgiving a person.  It would be strange if you can forgive God easily and struggle to forgive a human being made by God!   No human being makes babies die from famine or war the way God does.  Forgiving God is just a cloak for condoning.  If God is right to allow evil after all that does not make condoning right but makes it wrong and blasphemous.  Condoning is what you do if you suspect God is evil but choose to live with it and dress it up as good.

Let Robert Ingersoll have the last word, " “I do not believe in forgiveness as it is preached by the church. We do not need the forgiveness of God, but of each other and of ourselves. If I rob Mr Smith and God forgives me, how does that help Smith?”  God forgiving me does not help the person I hurt and the worse the hurt the more insulting I am being for thinking I am forgiven.  Forgiveness is not reversed should you prove unwilling to try to offer amends so it is about you not the other person at all!!